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	<title>Comments on: Compressed freckled waves</title>
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	<link>http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/05/21/game-projects/ohana-proa/compressed-freckled-waves/</link>
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		<title>By: J C Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/05/21/game-projects/ohana-proa/compressed-freckled-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>J C Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/?p=164#comment-35</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ve placed a longer and somewhat discursive reply &lt;a href=&quot;http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/06/05/ohana-proa/reflections-on-an-atoll/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  The concepts were broad enough I thought they warranted a full post rather than a reply-comment.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve placed a longer and somewhat discursive reply <a href="http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/06/05/ohana-proa/reflections-on-an-atoll/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  The concepts were broad enough I thought they warranted a full post rather than a reply-comment.</p>
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		<title>By: coca_lite</title>
		<link>http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/05/21/game-projects/ohana-proa/compressed-freckled-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>coca_lite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 15:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/?p=164#comment-27</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I have tried a few ways of dolling this up a bit but none of them really communicated what I wanted, so I hope you&#039;ll forgive the bluntness (and poor organization) of this set of observations and suggestions. They all revolve around your assertion that that &#039;Ohana Proa is not a resource management game. This is not really true. Also, I&#039;m not convinced it should be true.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If you can&#039;t be convinced that OP should have a strong resource management component, I&#039;d look to get rid of cash altogether.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;If you can be convinced that OP should have a strong resource management component, I&#039;d look to make moneymaking opportunities more scarce than they currently are.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The strongest argument I can make as for why your game should involve resource management is a recent game of Container. For whatever reason, in this game, auction prices went through the roof. Bidding started high and only went higher. The bubble never burst. The average lot was selling for at least $40. As a result, money was a complete non-factor. Goods were selling at the maximum from each station and everyone was willing to pay it because the returns at auction were insane.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The winner of that game was the player who was able to hold the greatest number of auctions, plain and simple. When presented with a handful of point-making paths, and one absolutely eclipses the rest, it doesn&#039;t make sense to focus on anything but that one path.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m concerned that in &#039;Ohana Proa, if players are easily making tons of money all the time and need to spend most of it every turn, all of the activities involving moneymaking come down to busywork. The winner of the game will be the player who most successfully establishes himself in choice gift-receiving spots, with everything else being window dressing.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Window dressing&quot; is a nasty way to describe some of the really cool stuff that happens in the game. I think to make it matter though, money has got to count for something. This impulse is where the suggestion to cut VP-cash trading--replacing it with a single choice to accept your payment for deliveries in cash or points--came from. It&#039;s also where the suggestion above to cut VPs for kula comes from.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;Happy birthday, Damien! Here&#039;s a gift card to Best Buy! Incidentally, did I mention that my birthday is today, I need an air conditioner, and Best Buy is having a sale on air conditioners today?&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Sorry these thoughts are so disorganized; it&#039;s a busy day here. Hopefully they provide some food for thought at least.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have tried a few ways of dolling this up a bit but none of them really communicated what I wanted, so I hope you&#8217;ll forgive the bluntness (and poor organization) of this set of observations and suggestions. They all revolve around your assertion that that &#8216;<a href="http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/category/ohana-proa/" >Ohana Proa</a> is not a resource management game. This is not really true. Also, I&#8217;m not convinced it should be true.</p>

<p>If you can&#8217;t be convinced that OP should have a strong resource management component, I&#8217;d look to get rid of cash altogether.</p>

<p>If you can be convinced that OP should have a strong resource management component, I&#8217;d look to make moneymaking opportunities more scarce than they currently are.</p>

<p>The strongest argument I can make as for why your game should involve resource management is a recent game of Container. For whatever reason, in this game, auction prices went through the roof. Bidding started high and only went higher. The bubble never burst. The average lot was selling for at least $40. As a result, money was a complete non-factor. Goods were selling at the maximum from each station and everyone was willing to pay it because the returns at auction were insane.</p>

<p>The winner of that game was the player who was able to hold the greatest number of auctions, plain and simple. When presented with a handful of point-making paths, and one absolutely eclipses the rest, it doesn&#8217;t make sense to focus on anything but that one path.</p>

<p>I&#8217;m concerned that in &#8216;<a href="http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/category/ohana-proa/" >Ohana Proa</a>, if players are easily making tons of money all the time and need to spend most of it every turn, all of the activities involving moneymaking come down to busywork. The winner of the game will be the player who most successfully establishes himself in choice gift-receiving spots, with everything else being window dressing.</p>

<p>&#8220;Window dressing&#8221; is a nasty way to describe some of the really cool stuff that happens in the game. I think to make it matter though, money has got to count for something. This impulse is where the suggestion to cut VP-cash trading&#8211;replacing it with a single choice to accept your payment for deliveries in cash or points&#8211;came from. It&#8217;s also where the suggestion above to cut VPs for kula comes from.</p>

<p>&#8220;Happy birthday, Damien! Here&#8217;s a gift card to Best Buy! Incidentally, did I mention that my birthday is today, I need an air conditioner, and Best Buy is having a sale on air conditioners today?&#8221;</p>

<p>Sorry these thoughts are so disorganized; it&#8217;s a busy day here. Hopefully they provide some food for thought at least.</p>
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		<title>By: J C Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/05/21/game-projects/ohana-proa/compressed-freckled-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>J C Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 10:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/?p=164#comment-26</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I hope to get at least two games in during Kublacon using the new rules.  I&#039;ll know more then.  Currently I&#039;m most concerned about the price/cost/opportunity balance effects that these rules changes make.  They mess with core assumptions of the game model and I&#039;m not yet convinced how important that is.  The auction absorbs a lot but I&#039;ve diddled and flattened that value gradient too.  I fear that I&#039;ll have to adjust the VP/fish/shells exchange rate, as if I do that will require the entire number structure of the game to be re-evaluated from scratch.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Once nice thing for you may be that with the changes turn order control is less sensitive and that turn order placement rather than simple earlier-is-better is now an actually interesting decision.  I don&#039;t yet know how that works out against the delivery/ordering incentives: I ran models all night and day and it just isn&#039;t clear.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I have long thought about losing the gift/VP connection many tumes.  Keeping the VP tie remains so that gifts can be converted into both resources and gifts.  It splits the value of a gift into a time-shifted base resource component and a potential prestige/gift component and that split can be interesting.  10Vps is 3 fish, 3 shells and 2VPs, almost 4 fish and 4 shells -- but in a form which doesn&#039;t rot.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope to get at least two games in during Kublacon using the new rules.  I&#8217;ll know more then.  Currently I&#8217;m most concerned about the price/cost/opportunity balance effects that these rules changes make.  They mess with core assumptions of the game model and I&#8217;m not yet convinced how important that is.  The auction absorbs a lot but I&#8217;ve diddled and flattened that value gradient too.  I fear that I&#8217;ll have to adjust the VP/fish/shells exchange rate, as if I do that will require the entire number structure of the game to be re-evaluated from scratch.</p>

<p>Once nice thing for you may be that with the changes turn order control is less sensitive and that turn order placement rather than simple earlier-is-better is now an actually interesting decision.  I don&#8217;t yet know how that works out against the delivery/ordering incentives: I ran models all night and day and it just isn&#8217;t clear.</p>

<p>I have long thought about losing the gift/VP connection many tumes.  Keeping the VP tie remains so that gifts can be converted into both resources and gifts.  It splits the value of a gift into a time-shifted base resource component and a potential prestige/gift component and that split can be interesting.  10Vps is 3 fish, 3 shells and 2VPs, almost 4 fish and 4 shells &#8212; but in a form which doesn&#8217;t rot.</p>
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		<title>By: coca_lite</title>
		<link>http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/2008/05/21/game-projects/ohana-proa/compressed-freckled-waves/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>coca_lite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 22:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kanga.nu/~claw/blog/?p=164#comment-25</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This all looks good and I&#039;m looking forward to trying it out, especially with its accelerated opening.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What do you think about the idea of completely eliminating VPs for gifts received?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This all looks good and I&#8217;m looking forward to trying it out, especially with its accelerated opening.</p>

<p>What do you think about the idea of completely eliminating VPs for gifts received?</p>
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